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Destiny 2

Discuss all things Destiny 2.
Edited by jhermannITJ: 5/20/2024 2:00:15 AM
8

Nerfs... a fallacy, let's talk about it.

[url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WaxvbLx7UoSZaBqdFr1u32F2uWVLo-CJunJB4nlGUE4/edit#gid=284387382]Compendium Weapon Mods[/url] ⚠️[Disclaimer: Until we have all the information this analysis is incomplete, as such, there are probably a few instances where my analysis is wrong or where the metrics aren't exactly right. But, it's close... I had a friend read it, and they pointed out some things that could be ambiguous and I agree. However, it's still close. Us stat nerds still don't fully understand the Div adjustment completely]⚠️. Let's start here: [i]"Back in update 6.3.0, we rolled a set of Spec mods (Dragonfly, Surrounded, and Rampage) into the base functionality of those perks, and now we're coming for the rest of the Spec mods. [b][u]We've increased base weapon damage almost universally[/u][/b] (making exceptions for weapons that were already overperforming or that we buffed very recently) and have retired the following weapon mods: Boss Spec, Taken Spec, Minor Spec, Major Spec, and Adept Big Ones Spec". [/i] Next: (The beginning of the quote... PAY ATTENTION) [i]"[b][u]In addition to compensating for the removal of Spec mods[/u][/b], we've taken this opportunity to buff some weapon types that have languished in endgame PvE, most notably Pulse Rifles. [b][u]Increased base PvE damage versus all combatants.[/u][/b] Pulse Rifles: 20% Exceptions: Graviton Lance and Revision Zero's Heavy Burst mode. (These both have an intrinsic PvE damage buff built in.) Pellet Shotguns: 10% Exceptions: Legend of Acrius, Tractor Cannon, Conditional Finality, and The Fourth Horseman. (These are all already performing as intended.) Slug Shotguns: 9% Fusion Rifles: 7% Exceptions: One Thousand Voices. (This one was just buffed.) Sniper Rifles: 7% Exceptions: Izanagi's Burden's Honed Edge shots and Cloudstrike's storm. (These are both performing well.) Glaive projectiles: 7% Linear Fusion Rifles: 5% [b]Increased damage versus Minors (red bars)—[u]this stacks with the base PvE damage increase.[/u][/b] Sidearms, Trace Rifles, Scout Rifles, and Bows: 20% Auto Rifles and Pulse Rifles: 15% For Pulse Rifles, this is in addition to the above buff, and Graviton Lance and Revision Zero's Heavy Burst mode are included. I.e. Pulse Rifles will do 1.2 * 1.15 = 38% more damage to red bars. Submachine Guns: 10% Hand Cannons: 5% Increased damage versus Majors (orange bars). Trace Rifles: 20% Increased damage globally, including PvP. Machine Guns: 7% Swords: 7%" [/i] TLDR: The Global buff for MOST weapons should be between 7-10%. Spec mods were 7.7. Taken Spec was 10. They didn't give the metric... but the range should be somewhere in there. 2. IN ADDITION... the buffs as indicated... separate, on top of, independent and additive as explained briefly for Pulse Rifles vs. redbars. A 38% cumulative buff overall. Don't just read a single sentence. You have to read the whole thing. It baffles me. Does Bungie need to hold your hand and cite all the detailed metrics? They shouldn't. Do you know why any data junkies aren't raising alarm bells? You see in the link provided the data is already getting updated. Why not? There are no nerfs. And we won't know the exact metrics until launch... BUT everything is getting buffed. Even chain reaction... isn't really going to take much of a hit because of the global buff, in total dps output... and mag mods, and the recent buff to reserves. Lament is getting a healing nerf. AoE primaries won't clear rooms. Div will need setup for bosses. 3 nerfs. That's it. Everything else will remain the same or is getting a minimum 7% buff with no need to swap mods for enemy type. EDIT: Notice how I didn't list Osteo? The gun will do significantly more base dmg to every enemy type... yes there is a cooldown on the AoE proc... but that is FULLY mitigated by the dmg increase at base for the weapon. It will be less flashier, but better overall. "Osteo Striga made it too easy to spread poison across a whole encounter from a couple of kills of weak combatants. Now has a 4-second cooldown on the poison burst on kills. ([b][u]Poison burst from sustained damage doesn't receive this cooldown.[/u][/b])" The Math estimates for Osteo: 40 to 30. So, 30 + 7-10 +10 vs minors... that's 47-50 vs minors a net gain of 7-10% vs minors despite the AoE cooldown. Vs. Majors and above it's better because of the stacking poison dmg. [b][u]Poison burst from sustained damage doesn't receive this cooldown.[/u][/b] Osteo got buffed. This is consistent with the other exotic smg referenced i.e. Riskrunner: [i]"e.g., Riskrunner's maximum possible damage is increased 10% versus red bars...."[/i] In practice... the bursts will do more dmg and will only have a cooldown on the kill trigger proc. And that kill trigger cooldown is mitigated by the increases base dmg of 7-10%. Meaning during the cooldown, you'll kill red bars quicker individually and when the burst triggers from kills or sustained dmg... it will do more dmg. Add clear will barely take a hit... you'll just need to target enemies and aim the weapon more vs. minors. Everything else it's better. 😇👍💠. There's virtually NO NERFS given the field of BUFFS ACROSS THE BOARD. Get it now? We can estimate/support the validity of my assessment per the Global buff with some simple math and Pulse Rifles. 38% remember? So, Pulse Rifles: 20% + Auto Rifles and Pulse Rifles: 15% (vs. minors) = 35. They cited 38 as the aggregate metric increase across all enemy types... that puts the range of the global buff at 7-10%. That's the math. And that's consistent with the benefit values of the soon to be deprecated dmg spec mods. In the above example a minimum of 25% vs. minors + the global buff of 7-10% to compensate for minor spec. That's 35, 38 as the aggregate across all enemy types. Next the Kinetic nerf: [i]"Several releases back, we gave Kinetic weapons a substantial damage bonus in PvE to account for it being harder to use them in subclass builds. In general, we're ok with leaving this in place until we have a better-defined role for Kinetic weapons, but the bonus damage versus Boss-tier combatants was making it hard for weapons of other damage types to compete. [b]Kinetic damage type weapons [u]no longer deal bonus damage to bosses; damage to other combatant tiers is unchanged.[/u][/b] For example, a kinetic Sniper Rifle and a Stasis Sniper Rifle of the same subfamily will both deal the same damage to a boss". [/i] That dps boon was 10% vs. BOSSES. So, let's take snipers... minimum 7% global + 7% equals 14%. That's a net gain minimum of 4%, not including the reserve buffs + backup mag dps potential for kinetic affinity snipers. In addition, every other affinity sniper gets brought up with minimum net gains of 14%. This example applies to almost EVERY kinetic affinity weapon that has boss DPS viability except Izanagi's Burden and maybe Witherhoard. In every other instance the global and dedicated archetype buffs supersede removing the kinetic affinity buff of 10%. Slugs, Pellet Shottys... everything... Warden's Law... Malfeasance. And NOW... all the other affinity weapons are right there too. Better. Objectively... and without a doubt a significant improvement. Finally, the Queenbreaker nonsense... that's the 0.4% "lol gotcha" metric? Who came up with that? [i]"The Queenbreaker's damage output is outpaced by Legendary Linear Fusion Rifles, so we've increased its damage and reserve ammo to compensate. We do see frequent requests to move Queenbreaker to the Energy slot, but given the number of Special ammo damage options in this slot, we have opted to push it further in the Heavy slot. [b][u]We're working on some functionality changes to this weapon for a future update as well[/u][/b]. Increased damage versus bosses, minibosses, Champions, and vehicles by 12%. Increased reserve ammunition by 3". [/i] + "Linear Fusion Rifles: 5%" for all enemy types + the global buff of 7-10% is what? Even if some of that doesn't stack. That's 19% minimum plus 3 extra shots... a range estimate of 19-27% increase to Bosses per shot with 3 extra shots and "functionality changes" coming in an update after launch. Where are people getting 0.4%? I think I covered most everything.

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  • Nice rundown. Now explain the Fighting Lion nerfs.

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    • I like pulse rifles, always nice to see them getting something. I’m kinda curious about trace rifles now vs majors, might make the special ammo feel like special ammo. But you know the damage numbers from our guns are only half the story. For existing content the buffs will mostly likely be that. For the new campaign though we don’t really know how our weapons will feel. How many orange and yellow bars bungie chooses to inject into encounters. And then ofc we’ll have the dread faction that’s new, which should be exciting, hopefully. Idk, I guess I chose to be cautiously optimistic for now. There is a lot of emphasis on abilities and the prismatic combos, which is fine, so long as my guns are still deadly inside the traveller. I don’t want to tickle the dread to death with space magic. I’ll leave that to floaty warlocks lol.

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      • Has much has we all hate nerfs, Metas keep the sandbox fresh Your sad at the things being nerfed, but at the same time filled with excitement at what new things might be good now I am holding out hope that one day , there will be "Must Have Queensbreaker" raid posts

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        • Sorry, this is the only bit I read: [quote]Lament is getting a healing nerf. AoE primaries won't clear rooms. Div will need setup for bosses.[/quote] 🙃 [spoiler]I suspect the people who look for reasons to get mad will continue to do so, but I applaud your efforts nonetheless![/spoiler]

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        • The problem is the nerfs are un needed an un called for and pointless 🙄

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          • Damn, son. You must be on the good pills today?

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            • Edited by jhermannITJ: 5/19/2024 11:59:11 AM
              Addendum: How do I know there is ACTUALLY a global buff? They never give a metric... maybe I'm just misinterpreting that language? Nope. We actually DO KNOW the global buff metric... but it varies from archetype to archetype. And the way I initially described it might be a little unclear. The range is 7-10 minimum total (buff per weapon type) unless, it's over like Pulse rifles for minors that were juiced with added benefits. 38%. That global buff vs. Minors on Pulses is 3%. That's how I know the "Global buff" is independent of the other listed dedicated buffs. Because, IF the dedicated buff... vs. ALL is 20 and the stacking Minor buff is 15... that's only 35. But they said... 38. 38-35 =3. Pulses vs Minors get an extra 3% to compensate for the deprecation of Minor Spec as their "Global buff". Since it will vary from archetype to archetype & by enemy type, they can't provide a universal metric for the Global buff rates. However, the buff (per weapon type) will equal the spec mod deprecation; at minimum 7-10%. In rare cases, the changes are neutral respective DPS potential. So, other than the fact they explicitly stated that the universal buffs... global buffs exist, you can see it and determine the exact figure via the information provided about pulse rifle buffs vs minors. The net benefit is 30.3% vs Minors for pulses if you previously used minor spec (38-7.7=30.3). I always put major spec on my primaries... as most do. So for me, and most others... it will effectively be a 38% buff vs. Minors. These increases (some) even apply to both Revision Zero and Graviton Lance. GR's AoE is smaller, but it does more dmg to every enemy type including redbars... which makes it better against endgame minors. Speaking to redbars, [i]"Pulse Rifles: 15% For Pulse Rifles, this is in addition to the above buff [20%], and [b][u]Graviton Lance and Revision Zero's Heavy Burst mode are included[/u][/b]"[/i] So let's figure it out for Graviton: [i]"Reduced damage bonus versus Minors from 40% to 30%".[/i] So, minus -10. Then ... + 3 (-7) +20 (13) +15 (28) That's Graviton's relative buff for the impact rnds from right NOW... so 30% basically. Splash dmg: Speaking of the "ALL combatants" 20% buff, [i]"Exceptions: Graviton Lance and Revision Zero's Heavy Burst mode. (These both have an intrinsic PvE damage buff built in.)" [/i] So that means -20 BUT the +18 remains - 10 (the reduction of the dps boon on exotic primaries from 40 to 30) = 8%. The AoE proc will do 8% more dmg to minors but in a smaller area of effect. So, 28/8 is the buff you'll FEEL [from right now] direct shots and the AoE proc respectively per the information provided for Graviton Lance. Graviton Lance got a buff. There might be an ambiguity in the language... "Exceptions: Graviton Lance and Revision Zero's Heavy Burst mode". If this refers to ALL Graviton dmg... then the metric becomes 8/8 respective direct shots and the AoE proc. Which could be it too... but it still amounts to a buff for Graviton with a smaller AoE effect.... 8% for minors. It fits that 7-10% range benefit from spec mod deprecation. And if the idea is to keep the metric differences between Exotics and Legendries the same... Legendaries receiving that global benefit from spec mod deprecation in that defined range of 7-10%... that would inform approximately a 8% buff for all exotic pulses to keep the parity consistent with what it is now. It could be more (28 for direct shots), but it's at least 8% for Graviton no matter the dmg type - direct shots or AoE. The AoE IS 8%, but directs shots are either +28 or +8% depending on what the quote I provided refers to exactly.

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            • Edited by viiTactiiCZz: 5/19/2024 6:15:43 AM
              One of the issues with the update post is how much they bundle into it and its not properly grouped they mention a bow buff in one place then trinity slight nerf.. but its actually a 0.4%?? buff in another. There should just be a separate linked article at the bottom listing weapons/archetypes/frames and how they currently perform vs what they'll do post changes but that's too much effort so leave it to the community to do it. X frame does Y bodyshot damage now, X frame does Z bodyshot damage post update X frame does Y precision damage now, X frame does Z precision damage post update

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