[spoiler]This topic is about AR's in PVP more than PVE (though AR's can be used in PVE because the TTK isn't a main factor in PVE, they still can't hold a candle to the damage aspect of the other weapons)[/spoiler] Many, many posts and discussions are going on about the need to buff auto rifles. I agree to this (All other weapons need left alone.) but AR's are in desperate need of a buff and re-tweak of some kind. This is not about HC's being too strong but how badly AR's got nerfed. I've been really thinking this through and have come up with a sad conclusion. AR's have now been, and forever will be EXTINCT! Below is why: The main aspect of an AR is to be effective at just around medium to close range. The issue with this game is... the fighting in just about EVERY PVP map is done within this range. In Destiny's desire to try to get other guns being used starting messing with aspects of the specific guns instead of what the real issue is... the RANGE in the game is not balanced correctly. It's not really the guns that have issues. When you look at every aspect of a complaint about a gun, it always comes down to the range of the gun. Thorn is a sniper, Hawkmoon as well... TLW shows it has crap range, but it still has GREAT range in the parameters of the Maps play style so people still think the Range is too good. Suros in it's prime day had SICK "range" for an auto rifle. No one used Pulse Rifles or Scouts because the TTK couldn't compete with the other guns because of rate of fire even at a LONG ranged distance... AGAIN, it all comes down to range. So why will AR's stay extinct. Because then Bungie would REALLY have to recode their Range aspect of the whole game, and adjust all it's maps to allow for a "range disparity" to balance the guns Strengths. This we all know isn't going to happen. RANGE in this game is non existent. the Majority of fighting is really close range... and why TLW really is the King of the Hill (even over Thorn)... along with a good Shotgun. If they wanted to Buff AR's, THE ONLY thing left for them to fix is give them more impact and reduce range more. This would balance them out to be the gun they are meant to be. Close range beasts... BUT again, here is the problem. They Would NEVER beat out the king's of the hill... TLW and Shotguns... WHY, because the majority of combat in Destiny is CLOSE RANGE, and an AR would never be able to beat the TTK of a one hit shotgun or TLW within this range. So for the TL-DR crowd sum up. it's absolutely futile to spend any attention to AR's because the play style of destiny is a close range game.