po raz pierwszy umieszczony:Secular Sevens
[quote]Students at an Illinois high school are taking action in an effort to stop prayers at their public school’s annual graduation ceremony, according to a secular organization that recently sent a warning letter on their behalf.
Represented by the American Humanist Association’s Appignani Humanist Legal Center, unnamed students at Norris City-Omaha-Enfield High School in Norris City, Ill., are on a “quest to have the regularly occurring unconstitutional practice stopped,” proclaims a press release from the humanist group.
“Not only do the graduation prayers place unconstitutional coercive pressure on students to participate in a religious exercise, but they also have the effect of advancing and endorsing religion,” it read, in part. “The Establishment Clause ‘has long guarded against government conduct that has the effect of promoting religious teachings in school settings, and the case law has evinced special concern with the receptivity of schoolchildren to endorsed religious messages.”[/quote]
Now obviously all the religious students and people in my community are pissed, but some others do not care. I, personally, am quite tired of seeing this all over my Facebook.
This is what I posted on one status:
[quote] I agree that it is kind of stupid and petty, but to say it doesn't violate the first amendment is false. Public schools cannot have any religious preference over another. Its why there is no daily prayer or any religious material in the school (unless being taught as a form of literature or critically analyzing religion). One could theoretically argue that this does, in fact, violate their first amendment rights and probably be successful in court.[/quote]
The person said something about it being student led, so I said:
[quote]Yes. Student led religious activities are fine. But at a large, school sanctioned event, one could argue that a prayer violates their first amendment rights.
It would be like if every morning a student says a prayer through the intercom system. It may be student led, but its still through a school sanctioned event; moreover, its pushing one theological perspective over another. The first amendment does grant citizens of the US to have freedom of religion, but it also means that the government cannot put one belief system over another.
However, like I said before, the prayer during graduation lasted less than 30 seconds. Pardon my language, but who gives a shit? You know? Don't do it and then move on.[/quote]
What are your thoughts on this issue? Do you care about prayers during a graduation or do you see it as unconstitutional?
EDIT: Let me just clarify that the graduation schedule has always included time allotted for both an opening and closing prayer and they are student-led.
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Is there really that hard to say that you just don't want too pray? ... If an american goes to another country I'm pretty sure we would be obligated to do as the Romans do. But you never really have to do it.
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I can't believe this is still a problem.
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Edytowany przez użytkownika aBallisticToucan: 3/23/2014 3:34:24 AM#Politics and #Religion in the [i]same thread?[/i] Oh my!
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Praying does not do anything anyway, so there should not be an issue here.
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Make time for every religious group to pray or none at all.[spoiler]atheists can give a short science lecture [/spoiler]
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Did they force everyone to pray? Or could you just stand there with a blank face and wait for it to be over? My primary school had school prayers and I just sat there and blinked until it was over, you don't need to make a big fuss over it. It's not like they pinned them to the wall at gunpoint and screamed OUR FATHER? Oh god please don't shoot OUUURR FATHER? WHO ART IN WWWHHHHEEEERREEE? Pleaaaaaseeee SAY IT OR SO HELP ME GOD YOU WILL READ CORINTHIANS. Our father who art in seven eleven *BANG*
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Edytowany przez użytkownika Banned n3rd: 4/21/2014 4:11:02 PMSome people are just too dramatic. It's not like their forcing these children to be baptized or branding a cross on their foreheads. It's one simple prayer. I could sue because my science classes teach me things that sort of contradict my religion, but there's no point because it's just not a big deal. Edit: seriously, please look at the date of posts before replying to them. This is several months old.
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Edytowany przez użytkownika dr0cx: 1/27/2014 4:52:33 PMThe Supreme Court has had the final word on several very similar cases over the past 60 or so years. [url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1940-1949/1947/1947_90]McCollum v. Board of Education Dist. 71, 333 U.S. 203 (1948)[/url] [quote]Supreme Court finds religious instruction in public schools a violation of the establishment clause and therefore unconstitutional.[/quote] [url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1961/1961_468]Engel v. Vitale, 82 S. Ct. 1261 (1962)[/url] [quote]Supreme Court finds any kind of prayer, composed by public school districts, even nondenominational prayer, is unconstitutional government sponsorship of religion.[/quote] [url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1960-1969/1962/1962_142]Abington School District v. Schempp, 374 U.S. 203 (1963)[/url] [quote]Supreme Court finds Bible reading over school intercom unconstitutional and Murray v. Curlett, 374 U.S. 203 (1963) - Court finds forcing a child to participate in Bible reading and prayer unconstitutional.[/quote] [url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1980-1989/1980/1980_80_321]Stone v. Graham, 449 U.S. 39 (1980)[/url] [quote]Supreme Court finds posting of the Ten Commandments in schools unconstitutional.[/quote] [url=http://www.oyez.org/cases/1990-1999/1991/1991_90_1014]Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct. 2649 (1992)[/url] [quote]Unconstitutional for a school district to provide any clergy to perform nondenominational prayer at elementary or secondary school graduation. It involves government sponsorship of worship. Court majority was particularly concerned about psychological coercion to which children, as opposed to adults, would be subjected, by having prayers that may violate their beliefs recited at their graduation ceremonies.[/quote]
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Good. Personally (and you did ask for my thoughts on the issue), I don't think religious people are completely 'all there.' I'm cool with letting someone think and practice their delusion somewhere where I'm not held captive and the place isn't associated with the government. A school graduation is both, and a ceremony celebrating so many years of education isn't a place for pretend, imaginary friend time.
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Unconstitutional. This is Haram. What if people arent Christian? It would be Offensive.
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I agree that the prayer shouldn't be there. Religion doesn't belong in school, and the prayer can still be done at any point whatsoever outside of the school-official graduation and still have the same positive effect for the people of that religion who are saying it. However, suing the school is also not the right route. It doesn't solve the problem, and it makes whoever's suing look like an asshole. Crap like this gives atheists a bad name. Just take the prayer out, and have the Christian students or whatever hold their own private service after the graduation and away from the school.
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It's student led but teacher implemented. Just because the student leads the prayer, doesn't mean he decided to start it, especially if it's "tradition".
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HOW ABOUT... you just don't prayer?
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Yep I go to an Illinois school too, the apostolic church pretty much controls the town and the school board. -blam!-ing bunheads
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It is unconstitutional for a public institution to endorse, or have any religious activities. I agree with the law, unless they want to cite every single daily prayer of every religion.
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This is so stupid, if they were really this worried about equal rights they would be trying to have evolution taken out as a subject in Biology, which happens much more often then an annual graduation ceremony.
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Edytowany przez użytkownika HurtfulTurkey: 1/24/2014 4:12:22 PMWas it a non-denominational prayer, or was it something like, "thank you Anglican Jesus", etc? The establishment clause addresses a national religion, not the complete lack of religious material in a school, and prayer isn't necessarily religious. It exists secularly as metacognition, meditation, etc. Kinda inappropriate but it's not comparable to forcing students to participate in a daily morning prayer as many in this thread seem to imply.
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'MURICA
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I think calling in the American Humanist Association’s Appignani Humanist Legal Center (Jesus, that's a mouthful) was the wrong way to handle this. You can already tell by the wording of the press release that this is going to be a shitstorm and they're probably going to take this way too far. At the very least, they could have tried bringing their concerns to the administration in private instead of going full blown internet atheist.
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Edytowany przez użytkownika Bolt: 1/24/2014 8:26:49 PMThey did this at my graduation and I lived in a really secular town. No one really cared and most just saw it as tradition. I tend to let nihilism influence my view of religion; it's all arbitrary, and I don't have any true absolute knowledge, so the flavor of perception that people choose for their brief existence doesn't really bother me. I don't even include the "as long as they don't bother other people", because people will bother and kill each other regardless of what they believe. People on both sides of this conflict, fedoras and theists, love this conflict, because it gives weight to their delusions of mattering.
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Edytowany przez użytkownika Raptorkid24: 1/24/2014 11:04:53 PMDo you guys really need a prayer? But then again, do you really need to sue?
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I talked about this topic with allot of people where I live and everyone seemed okay with the whole prayer thing, it's not exactly forcing anything on a student, so they don't have to pray or anything like that.
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Good for them, fighting for their right not to have someone else's religion shoved down their throat. I'm ready for Scopes Trial Part II, where we finally drive this beast from our schools.
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Good for them (the kids who are suing). It takes guts to risk the wrath of the Oppressed Christian Minority(TM).
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Edytowany przez użytkownika Entraps: 1/24/2014 8:09:20 PMThe prayer should be allowed, end of story. The Secular Humanists of this organization need to get a bloody life, all they do is try and stomp out religion wherever they think they can succeed based on some kind of unfounded hatred and love of making others unhappy. The first amendment is there to prevent the government from suppressing religion, not to facilitate said suppression.